Approach plate Y23 questions
13 years 1 week ago #11650
by jer029
John Rogers
Webmaster
Approach plate Y23 questions was created by jer029
I've had a great time flying the training flights, and I like the FS save and load feature that allows me to get quickly to critical points of practice like DME-arc approaches and circle approach. The material you folks have provided has been wonderful and I'm really learning a lot.
I've been flying and learning as I go - still not ready to try on-line flying because I'm still figuring out the ATC stuff. I managed to fly my assigned flights so that RC4 and FSPassengers liked the results, but I want to continue my realistic flying.
Here're my questions:
I was looking at flying the taxi flights under Bush Ops since I haven't seen regular flight assignments for a while, so I thought that would allow me to fly the King-Air, which I've become comfortable with - allowing me to concentrate on Nav and ATC stuff. I saw the KMSP-Y23 route, so started working some flight plans based on my limited knowledge. First, the website sent me to a dead link related to necessary flight planning. Undaunted, I found a site called runwayfinder.com and began trying to pick airways and approaches that would align me with RWY35 - most likely the active, with wind out of the north.
My first questions came regarding planning the enroute leg after lifting off from KMSP RWY4. It seemed reasonable to link up with V78, but this seemed to take me too far north, so perhaps V413, but that had an interesting leg off of GEP where it was referred to something like V413-5?? I dont remember the rest, but it seemed to transition from GEP to EAU, this low-level airway. I ended up with two approach plates RNAV (GPS) and VOR/DME-A.
Since I wasn't using GPS, the intersections shown on that plate were of little use to me, so that took me to the other plate.
I finally let RC4 direct me on a 090 heading to EAU after filing plan of KMSP EAU Y23. Based on the the two plates I knew that 334 to 336 would direct me to the airport from EAU so made that turn at EAU. At that point RC4 ATC stepped me down to 3200, which I recognized as the MSA for Y23. I located RWY35 and landed safely.
If I did fly the VOR/DME-A I was coming from the south and if my studies were correct, VOR/DME-A directs to the airport, not a specific runway. So... I'm flying along and get to EAU, turn left on 334 from EAU. The solid line on the 1 min hold at RPD - means that I have to hold for a minute? Then I get to continue to the airport - but now I'm on the wrong side for RWY35. Also, how do I enter that holding pattern at RPD from a 334 heading off of EAU? If I continue to RPD don't I run the risk of colliding with other aircraft making their r-turn from a 136 to 316 in their own hold pattern?
If someone can offer some guidance from my overly verbose post I appreciate any and all constructive direction.
jr
I've been flying and learning as I go - still not ready to try on-line flying because I'm still figuring out the ATC stuff. I managed to fly my assigned flights so that RC4 and FSPassengers liked the results, but I want to continue my realistic flying.
Here're my questions:
I was looking at flying the taxi flights under Bush Ops since I haven't seen regular flight assignments for a while, so I thought that would allow me to fly the King-Air, which I've become comfortable with - allowing me to concentrate on Nav and ATC stuff. I saw the KMSP-Y23 route, so started working some flight plans based on my limited knowledge. First, the website sent me to a dead link related to necessary flight planning. Undaunted, I found a site called runwayfinder.com and began trying to pick airways and approaches that would align me with RWY35 - most likely the active, with wind out of the north.
My first questions came regarding planning the enroute leg after lifting off from KMSP RWY4. It seemed reasonable to link up with V78, but this seemed to take me too far north, so perhaps V413, but that had an interesting leg off of GEP where it was referred to something like V413-5?? I dont remember the rest, but it seemed to transition from GEP to EAU, this low-level airway. I ended up with two approach plates RNAV (GPS) and VOR/DME-A.
Since I wasn't using GPS, the intersections shown on that plate were of little use to me, so that took me to the other plate.
I finally let RC4 direct me on a 090 heading to EAU after filing plan of KMSP EAU Y23. Based on the the two plates I knew that 334 to 336 would direct me to the airport from EAU so made that turn at EAU. At that point RC4 ATC stepped me down to 3200, which I recognized as the MSA for Y23. I located RWY35 and landed safely.
If I did fly the VOR/DME-A I was coming from the south and if my studies were correct, VOR/DME-A directs to the airport, not a specific runway. So... I'm flying along and get to EAU, turn left on 334 from EAU. The solid line on the 1 min hold at RPD - means that I have to hold for a minute? Then I get to continue to the airport - but now I'm on the wrong side for RWY35. Also, how do I enter that holding pattern at RPD from a 334 heading off of EAU? If I continue to RPD don't I run the risk of colliding with other aircraft making their r-turn from a 136 to 316 in their own hold pattern?
If someone can offer some guidance from my overly verbose post I appreciate any and all constructive direction.
jr
John Rogers
Webmaster
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13 years 1 week ago #11657
by jer029
John Rogers
Webmaster
Replied by jer029 on topic Approach plate Y23 questions
Thanks for the information Mike, I must say that the training flights here have really been fun and interesting - and, I never thought I would be flying the king air after playing with the big planes, but I've really gotten interested in the navigation, flight planning and approach parts of the hobby.
Still, I'm finding as many questions as answers as I move along. I find that the information you folks provide and the FSX for real world pilots book I got have helped greatly.
jr
Still, I'm finding as many questions as answers as I move along. I find that the information you folks provide and the FSX for real world pilots book I got have helped greatly.
jr
John Rogers
Webmaster
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13 years 5 days ago #11668
by jetjerry
Replied by jetjerry on topic Approach plate Y23 questions
John
You have chosen an interesting route and approach.
First, you must file an approved route with ATC to get from KMSP to Y23. In a busy terminal area like MSP it is most likely ATC will not leave you on it anyway. However, for academic purposes we'll do it by the book.
Look at the Low Alt Enroute Chart. What I would file is : (KMSP) MSP075.TWINZ.EAU281..EAU..RPD (Y23). That is the MSP 075 Radial to TWINZ and then the EAU 281 Radial to EAU, direct to RPD. You can do this because these are Flight Checked Radials shown on the Low Enroute Chart. Or choose any of the Airway routes that would get you there.
Note the (T) next to RICE LAKE at the RPD VOR box. That means it is a Terminal Class VOR...it only has a usable range of 25nm (unless Flight Checked otherwise).
As for the Approach. The title VOR/DME-A means it is not to a specific runway (the "A"). If it were to a rwy it would show VOR/DME-RWY23 (or whatever). Therefore for the App into Y23 only Circling Minimums apply. The King Air 350 would fall into Category "B" aircraft (I think) because it's speed would be between 91 kts and 121 kts on approach. This is based on Ref landing speed or 1.3 times Vso.
Now, look at the APP Plate.
If you were to arrive from over RZN then the Transition from RZN for the App to RPD is spelled out for you: 3200' on the 132 Radial from RZN for 35 miles. Note the NoPT means you would not need to fly a Procedure Turn if you were cleared for the Approach from over RZN...but notice there is a 4 degree diff between the crs inbound (132) to RPD and Outbound (136).
Now, since you are arriving from over EAU you would follow the Transition showing: 3200'/334R/33.6nm then you must fly a Procedure Turn when you get to RPD...except in this case a One Minute Holding Pattern is depicted instead of a PT barb. This means you MUST use a Holding Pattern entry to establish yourself on the App inbound. The reason for this is because the protected airspace for a Holding Pattern is less than for a PT. Why ATC needs this, you don't know...perhaps the nearby Airways. So, you would use either a Parallel or Tear Drop entry. I would use a Tear Drop because you would have more time to get yourself well established on the inbound Radial before passing the Fix inbound (RPD). (Google holding pattern entry if you wish to know more)
When you descend out of the clouds and see the airport you may then circle to any rwy you wish. Keep in mind that you may have only the minimum wx required for this App...622'/1 mile. Therefore you must be careful not to pull the aircraft back into the clouds while you are looking at the ground, and you will need to stay within 1 mile of the airport for all your maneuvering in order to stay visual with the airport. This type of App can be very dangerous because so much of your attention is diverted outside the airplane.
NOTEs:
The lines below the altitudes on the app plate (3200 & 2400) mean At or Above. Lines above mean at or below, and altitudes bracketed by two lines are mandatory.
The faint line coming into the Airport View box that shows 136/3.9nm from FAF is where your aircraft would approach the airport IF you were on course.
ATC would transfer you to the airport Advisory freq (122.9) probably after you reported passing RPD...so you could call the airport and get the latest winds. Also, if you are flying this App at or above basic VFR mins, then you need to know if there are any other aircraft in the vicinity. Be alert! Advisory freq are not always manned....they are not ATC towers.
I hope this helps.
Jerry
You have chosen an interesting route and approach.
First, you must file an approved route with ATC to get from KMSP to Y23. In a busy terminal area like MSP it is most likely ATC will not leave you on it anyway. However, for academic purposes we'll do it by the book.
Look at the Low Alt Enroute Chart. What I would file is : (KMSP) MSP075.TWINZ.EAU281..EAU..RPD (Y23). That is the MSP 075 Radial to TWINZ and then the EAU 281 Radial to EAU, direct to RPD. You can do this because these are Flight Checked Radials shown on the Low Enroute Chart. Or choose any of the Airway routes that would get you there.
Note the (T) next to RICE LAKE at the RPD VOR box. That means it is a Terminal Class VOR...it only has a usable range of 25nm (unless Flight Checked otherwise).
As for the Approach. The title VOR/DME-A means it is not to a specific runway (the "A"). If it were to a rwy it would show VOR/DME-RWY23 (or whatever). Therefore for the App into Y23 only Circling Minimums apply. The King Air 350 would fall into Category "B" aircraft (I think) because it's speed would be between 91 kts and 121 kts on approach. This is based on Ref landing speed or 1.3 times Vso.
Now, look at the APP Plate.
If you were to arrive from over RZN then the Transition from RZN for the App to RPD is spelled out for you: 3200' on the 132 Radial from RZN for 35 miles. Note the NoPT means you would not need to fly a Procedure Turn if you were cleared for the Approach from over RZN...but notice there is a 4 degree diff between the crs inbound (132) to RPD and Outbound (136).
Now, since you are arriving from over EAU you would follow the Transition showing: 3200'/334R/33.6nm then you must fly a Procedure Turn when you get to RPD...except in this case a One Minute Holding Pattern is depicted instead of a PT barb. This means you MUST use a Holding Pattern entry to establish yourself on the App inbound. The reason for this is because the protected airspace for a Holding Pattern is less than for a PT. Why ATC needs this, you don't know...perhaps the nearby Airways. So, you would use either a Parallel or Tear Drop entry. I would use a Tear Drop because you would have more time to get yourself well established on the inbound Radial before passing the Fix inbound (RPD). (Google holding pattern entry if you wish to know more)
When you descend out of the clouds and see the airport you may then circle to any rwy you wish. Keep in mind that you may have only the minimum wx required for this App...622'/1 mile. Therefore you must be careful not to pull the aircraft back into the clouds while you are looking at the ground, and you will need to stay within 1 mile of the airport for all your maneuvering in order to stay visual with the airport. This type of App can be very dangerous because so much of your attention is diverted outside the airplane.
NOTEs:
The lines below the altitudes on the app plate (3200 & 2400) mean At or Above. Lines above mean at or below, and altitudes bracketed by two lines are mandatory.
The faint line coming into the Airport View box that shows 136/3.9nm from FAF is where your aircraft would approach the airport IF you were on course.
ATC would transfer you to the airport Advisory freq (122.9) probably after you reported passing RPD...so you could call the airport and get the latest winds. Also, if you are flying this App at or above basic VFR mins, then you need to know if there are any other aircraft in the vicinity. Be alert! Advisory freq are not always manned....they are not ATC towers.
I hope this helps.
Jerry
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